Curse

Xenomortis · Jul 09, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's so false I'm just going to have to TLDR the rest of your post. If anything, MoP caller is BETTER with discordway since you have anywhere from 2 to 4x as many minions. For physway, it's probably just as well to take multiple copies of SW since it's easier AND heroes can do it.

Fine, whatever. The difference between a Discord caller and a MoP caller is that a discord caller is focusing on providing a hex and a condition (usually applied by YMLaD, AP and mabye another hex) - MoP is not necessary and is icing.
The MoP caller is focused around MoP.

I have argued why I hold that MoP does not work as well with Discord, you've stated the counter. I am not doing that again.

Someone mentioned PUGs with MoP. I rarely bother with PUGs unless somebody has convinced me (and then it's usually with good people). You really do have to hammer it in to your physicals to attack your target though and it does only work sometimes.
Guildies are much better than random strangers.

AtomicMew · Jul 09, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fine, whatever. The difference between a Discord caller and a MoP caller is that a discord caller is focusing on providing a hex and a condition (usually applied by YMLaD, AP and mabye another hex) - MoP is not necessary and is icing.
The MoP caller is focused around MoP.

I have argued why I hold that MoP does not work as well with Discord, you've stated the counter. I am not doing that again.

Someone mentioned PUGs with MoP. I rarely bother with PUGs unless somebody has convinced me (and then it's usually with good people). You really do have to hammer it in to your physicals to attack your target though and it does only work sometimes.
Guildies are much better than random strangers.

Fair enough, though you're right that MoP is not needed and is just icing. If anything, it's just giving you another way to kill things. I like being able to spike down individual targets with YMLAD! and FH!, since not everything will be clumped up.

I believe moloch's version has Tryptophan signet and technobabble. I've tried it, but I found YMLAD to be a superior snare to tryptophan. Even with max rank, the snare isn't very strong. Whereas YMLAD is 100% snare and shutdown for the first two seconds and still stronger snare afterwards.

_Nihilist_ · Jul 09, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I believe moloch's version has Tryptophan signet and technobabble. I've tried it, but I found YMLAD to be a superior snare to tryptophan. Even with max rank, the snare isn't very strong. Whereas YMLAD is 100% snare and shutdown for the first two seconds and still stronger snare afterwards.

Depends on if you want a single target snare or an AoE snare. When using an AP Caller for Discordway, AP is going to recharge either option, but since you are Discord Spiking, YMLaD! is probably the better option. If you need an AoE snare, Tryptophan Signet is going to be better - it slows attack speed to boot!

Chthon · Jul 10, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The fact is, minions have GREAT synergy with MoP. Discordway lets you take multiple MMs with negligible cost, (which is NOT the case for physway).
...
Your entire argument is countered by "just disable and manual discord when you need it."

1. I don't believe for a minute that you can enable and disable discord on 3 heroes fast enough to avoid the problem.

2. Disabling discord is admitting the problem -- discord has a bad anti-synergy with MoP. You're disabling one of your main damage sources to stop it from messing with the other one for Pete's sake. At that point, why not run the same exact bars, only with a different elite that you don't have to disable all the time?

3. You persist in the mistaken belief that the number of minions you have affects the amount of damage you get from MoP. It does not. One bone minion slowly chewing through a monster 5hp at a time will trigger MoP the same number of times as 50 or100 bone minions chewing through the monster 5hp at a time. What matters is (a) the the damage packets are physical damage, and (b) the size of the damage packets.

If maximizing MoP is your only concern, then unbuffed bone minions are the ideal. They deal small packets of physical damage. Any deviation from that -- either increasing packet size or substituting non-physical damage -- is going to lower MoP's output. Of course, your team needs some damage other than just MoP, and you'll need to sacrifice some of MoP's output to get it. The option that hurts MoP the least is increasing the average packet size while keeping the damage physical. Worse is substituting non-physical damage. And worst of all is substituting non-physical damage in large packets. Guess what discord does? That's right, non-physical damage in large packets. Perhaps gimping MoP more than necessary could be justified if discord itself offered superior DPS to make up for the loss, but it's already been shown time and again that it doesn't.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 10, 2009, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Oh no... Let's not start this idiocy again. Discord has a terrible anti-synergy with MoP. MoP's damage is NOT directly related to the number of minions you have. It IS directly related to how may physical hits your team can land on the target before it dies. Any non-physical damage you do to the target is counterproductive. And what does discord do? It knocks 300 hp off the target without triggering MoP even once. (And then the caller is supposed to knock off another 180 with Finish Him, again not triggering MoP.) It doesn't matter how many minions you have if most of them never get a hit in because the target got killed with non-physical damage. .

I really don't understand this. I started using 3 Discord heroes the same day it was buffed to a one sec cast - I've had nothin but good times with AP/MoP.

Whenever I H/H, the team is usually caster heavy so the only thing to trigger MoP are usually the minions, which is often good enough. One of the benefits to having minions trigger MoP is that they won't kill the target (too weak obviously). The AP caller shouldn't be killing it either.

I honestly don't don't see any anti-synergy between AP/MoP. You got massive spiking power with the occasional massive damage from MoP. I'm almost always calling the targets or micro'ing Discord for my heroes so I've never actually had any probs with a MoP'd target dying too early.

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

I honestly don't don't see any anti-synergy between AP/MoP. You got massive spiking power with the occasional massive damage from MoP. I'm almost always calling the targets or micro'ing Discord for my heroes so I've never actually had any probs with a MoP'd target dying too early.

Attacking different targets is a bit too advanced...

And if you say discord you can expect to have a full explanation why discord damage sucks even though it kills the target fast and it is coming from a bar that isn't about dealing damage to boot.

Chthon · Jul 11, 2009, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

I'm almost always calling the targets or micro'ing Discord for my heroes so I've never actually had any probs with a MoP'd target dying too early.

If you're willing to constantly micro 3 copies of Discord to keep it off of the MoP-ed target, then I don't see any problem with using Discord and MoP together. However, that's an awful lot of work for the sake of avoiding the anti-synergy. (Discordway's about being lazy, remember?) And in no case is traversc's ridiculous claim that discord increases MoP's effectiveness true.

Elemental Mio · Jul 11, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I always run E/N MoP caller for my guilds FoWSC.
All i use is Energy Boon instead of AP. Skills rechrge anyway before next spike so kinda useless for GoR.

~Mio

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 11, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you're willing to constantly micro 3 copies of Discord to keep it off of the MoP-ed target, then I don't see any problem with using Discord and MoP together. However, that's an awful lot of work for the sake of avoiding the anti-synergy. (Discordway's about being lazy, remember?) And in no case is traversc's ridiculous claim that discord increases MoP's effectiveness true.

You actually don't need to micro it. Just call any target besides the MoP'd one and the heroes should jump right on it. I personally don't see it as "an awful lot of work". It's a small amount of target calling for the occasional massive aoe damage.

Anyways, sometimes I get too lazy to micro certain skills in other team setups, but Discord + MoP isn't one I'd wanna pass on

AtomicMew · Jul 12, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

3. One bone minion slowly chewing through a monster 5hp at a time will trigger MoP the same number of times as 50 or100 bone minions chewing through the monster 5hp at a time.

Please clarify.

Because it seems to me, 50 or 100 bone minions chewing through the target will trigger MoP 50 or 100 times more.

Quote:

2. Disabling discord is admitting the problem -- discord has a bad anti-synergy with MoP. You're disabling one of your main damage sources to stop it from messing with the other one for Pete's sake. At that point, why not run the same exact bars, only with a different elite that you don't have to disable all the time?

Suggestions for better death elites? If you don't take death magic, then you have less minions and less MoP triggers.

Quote:

If maximizing MoP is your only concern, then unbuffed bone minions are the ideal. They deal small packets of physical damage. Any deviation from that -- either increasing packet size or substituting non-physical damage -- is going to lower MoP's output.

What you don't realize is that MoP itself is not always ideal. Single target spiking is a very useful option almost always, except for places where everything is clumped up, like Charr.

Quote:

Perhaps gimping MoP more than necessary could be justified if discord itself offered superior DPS to make up for the loss, but it's already been shown time and again that it doesn't.

False. A discord/MM will blow away a physical in raw damage. Post your numbers.

Quote:

And in no case is traversc's ridiculous claim that discord increases MoP's effectiveness true.

Stop stuffing words in my mouth.... I stated discordWAY increases MoP's effectiveness because more minions = more MoP triggers.

You even said so yourself: "If maximizing MoP is your only concern, then unbuffed bone minions are the ideal. They deal small packets of physical damage. "

Chthon · Jul 12, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Please clarify.

Because it seems to me, 50 or 100 bone minions chewing through the target will trigger MoP 50 or 100 times more.

Presume your monster has 500 life and enough armor that bone minions average 5 damage against it. One lonely minion will hit it 100 times before eventually killing it, triggering MoP 100 times. 50 minions will hit it twice each before killing it, triggering MoP 100 times. The overall damage output is exactly the same.

That said, there's a couple small advantages to having a very large number of minions outside of raw damage output:
1. It can make up for the mistake of damaging the target with large non-physical damage. 1 bone minion isn't going to trigger MoP much before your discord heroes kill it. 50 might get a few triggers in. Of course, you wouldn't need to make up for this mistake if you didn't make it in the first place.
2. Getting all the triggers you're going to get off your target in a short period of time provides a nice spike that can kill things before they flee or get healed. Of course, a warrior or assassin can do a better job at this than even a large number of minions.

Quote:

Suggestions for better death elites? If you don't take death magic, then you have less minions and less MoP triggers.

Outside of situations where you've got a few spread out foes and don't need MoP at all, you'd be better with an empty skillslot in place of discord. Any elite, no matter how weak, is better than one that works against you.

Quote:

False. A discord/MM will blow away a physical in raw damage. Post your numbers.

Refer to the two other threads you made on the same topic in the necro forum. There's numerous posts demonstrating how to far exceed discord's damage output. Please stop recycling refuted idiocies; the least you can do is post fresh idiocies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You actually don't need to micro it. Just call any target besides the MoP'd one and the heroes should jump right on it.

I don't think just calling another target is an effective solution to this problem. I generally find that the mere act of casting MoP is going to draw hero attention to the target I don't want them on. If I call a different target, sometimes they'll opt to finish their cast before following the call -- which short-circuits MoP -- and sometimes they'll interrupt their cast and switch promptly -- which hurts discord's efficiency (canceled casts mean time spent for no damage). No matter what the heroes do, it's not ideal. Also, the AI is going to continue to find the MoP-ed target a good candidate for discord, so you need to continually keep their attention elsewhere.

Now, since you made me think about it, I do think that some more intensive microing could definitely work to avoid the discord-MoP anti-synergy. I just don't want to put in that much effort when it's easier just to run a better build.

maxxfury · Jul 12, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

.. I stated discordWAY increases MoP's effectiveness because more minions = more MoP triggers.

Devils advocate says that Minions ARE NOT the sole property of discordway tho, people seem to forget that.

ANY team with a Ap-mop nuker can take minions also, be that team heavy physical, heavy caster(with spears) or a balanced.

Having 10 minions as apposed to 1 minion will cause more proc's of mop in the same period of time, provided they target the "mark" and hit it.

But yet again this has turned into a Disco debate :S The thread is about the E/n Mop nuker. :S

AtomicMew · Jul 12, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Devils advocate says that Minions ARE NOT the sole property of discordway tho, people seem to forget that.

No one forgot that. What I did say was that discordway takes MORE minions than physyway simply because discordway is already heavily specced into death magic. Discordway usually takes 2 MMs, 4 MMs for 2 man, whereas physway, from what I've seen, only takes one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Presume your monster has 500 life and enough armor that bone minions average 5 damage against it. One lonely minion will hit it 100 times before eventually killing it, triggering MoP 100 times. 50 minions will hit it twice each before killing it, triggering MoP 100 times. The overall damage output is exactly the same.

What... the fk.... Did you seriously just ignore the entire idea of DPS?

By your reasoning an 8 monk healer team is just as good as anything, because they'll do enough damage by wanding to "eventually killing it." 100 minions triggers MoP more doing 100 times more AoE DPS than one minion alone. That is an incredibly important idea.

Quote:

Outside of situations where you've got a few spread out foes and don't need MoP at all, you'd be better with an empty skillslot in place of discord. Any elite, no matter how weak, is better than one that works against you.

Real game situations say otherwise. Sometimes foes are spread out. That's just how the game is. Also, adjacent is actually a pretty small range.

Quote:

Now, since you made me think about it, I do think that some more intensive microing could definitely work to avoid the discord-MoP anti-synergy. I just don't want to put in that much effort when it's easier just to run a better build.

I'm glad you finally admit your entire argument is countered by "just micro it." Now to get you to realize it hardly makes a difference, either way.

Jeydra · Jul 12, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Read what he said traversc, and read it properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. One bone minion slowly chewing through a monster 5hp at a time will trigger MoP the same number of times as 50 or100 bone minions chewing through the monster 5hp at a time.

There's no mention of DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Suggestions for better death elites? If you don't take death magic, then you have less minions and less MoP triggers.

Aura of the Lich? Jagged Bones?

Pocketmancer · Jul 12, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

I figured I'd mention that I tried out this build earlier today although switching Ice Imp with Naga Shaman at one area. Given that you have a hero somewhere providing mass weakness, Naga Shaman's Stoning can keep an enemy on its back quite a bit.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 12, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I don't think just calling another target is an effective solution to this problem. I generally find that the mere act of casting MoP is going to draw hero attention to the target I don't want them on. If I call a different target, sometimes they'll opt to finish their cast before following the call -- which short-circuits MoP -- and sometimes they'll interrupt their cast and switch promptly -- which hurts discord's efficiency (canceled casts mean time spent for no damage). No matter what the heroes do, it's not ideal. Also, the AI is going to continue to find the MoP-ed target a good candidate for discord, so you need to continually keep their attention elsewhere.

Now, since you made me think about it, I do think that some more intensive microing could definitely work to avoid the discord-MoP anti-synergy. I just don't want to put in that much effort when it's easier just to run a better build.

I think you're really overthinking it. You're looking at it as if any target meeting Discord's reqs will instantly poof as soon as the heroes noticed it.

You need to understand the way heroes work when it comes to targeting. There's two ways that they target:

1: You press the spacebar to do a "light" call (I'll just call it that). It doesn't matter what you're doing, as soon as you hit the spacebar, they'll be on that target. If you press space on any other target, they'll jump on that one too

2: Doing an actual call with CTRL + space. Once you do that, they're locked onto the target. Pressing the spacebar alone won't be enough to make them switch anymore. They'll stay on it till it's dead or till you call another target.

With that being said, to make them ignore the MoP'd target, all you gotta do is call any target before you cast so that when you do cast it, they won't touch it. There's no micro'ing involved at all (unless you actually consider that micro'ing). It's such a small amount of work for an insane skill. It's been a staple on my Discord teams since day one.

Beisdes all that, depending on your setup, your heroes might also be casting alot more than Discord. Mines often spend time healing or doing minion-related stuff, so even if they did identify a target they can whoop on, they won't always do it on the spot. And of course, a target barely needs anything hp all to a useful MoP target when minions are the only thing triggering it. That's another reason why I micro - if they're busy doin somethin else when I want a specific target dead, you're gonna have to force it.

Truth is, Discordway is one of the few setups that works tons better when the user is micro'ing. You can kill specific threats, and drop targets before any healers have a chance to do anything about it. If I wanted to be lazy, I probably wouldn't be running Discord in the first place. Being active about it benefits the entire setup in so many ways.

Honestly, the thought of an anti-synergy between MoP and Discord has never come to mind. I always thought the opposite - one for single targets, the other for aoe. Basic but really damn effective.

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

You need to understand the way heroes work when it comes to targeting. There's two ways that they target:

1: You press the spacebar to do a "light" call (I'll just call it that). It doesn't matter what you're doing, as soon as you hit the spacebar, they'll be on that target. If you press space on any other target, they'll jump on that one too

2: Doing an actual call with CTRL + space. Once you do that, they're locked onto the target. Pressing the spacebar alone won't be enough to make them switch anymore. They'll stay on it till it's dead or till you call another target.

With that being said, to make them ignore the MoP'd target, all you gotta do is call any target before you cast so that when you do cast it, they won't touch it. There's no micro'ing involved at all (unless you actually consider that micro'ing). It's such a small amount of work for an insane skill. It's been a staple on my Discord teams since day one.

This. Very well explained.

This is the reason why some builds, like MS/DB don't seem to work in theory, will work.

AtomicMew · Jul 12, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Read what he said traversc, and read it properly.

There's no mention of DPS.

.... There obviously SHOULD be.

He's arguing that 1 minion triggering MoP 100 times is just as good as 100 minions triggering MoP 1 time each.

Seriously?Seriously?Seriously?Seriously?Seriously? Seriously?Seriously?Seriously?

Quote:

Re: better death elite: Aura of the Lich? Jagged Bones?

Not really..

Chthon · Jul 12, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

What... the fk.... Did you seriously just ignore the entire idea of DPS?

Did you seriously just ignore the entire idea of recharge time?

MoP's DPS is damage-per-copy-of-MoP divided by how quickly you can cast new copies.

The damage-per-copy-of-MoP depends on how much life the target has, how large the physical packets are, and how much of the target's hp you waste without triggering MoP. How many minions you have doesn't matter, since you're not getting any more damage from the current copy of MoP once the target is dead. Doing "X damage per second for Y seconds" or doing "X*Y damage in 1 sec followed by (Y-1) seconds of no damage" both do the same total amount of damage, namely X*Y, and both have the same DPS over Y seconds, namely X. A bazillion minions will compress all your MoP triggers for the current copy of MoP into a shorter period of time, but they won't provide you with another copy of MoP any faster, so they don't affect DPS except on a granularity smaller than MoP's effective recycle time.

How quickly you cast new copies of MoP you have depends on how quickly you can get AP to trigger.

All put together, the relationship looks something like this:
Average DPS = (42*A*((B-C)/D))/E
Where:
A = average number of adjacent foes
B = average hp of target when MoP is cast
C = average total damage done to target via non-physical damage
D = average packet size of physical damage done to target
E = average effective cast+recharge time for MoP considering effect of AP

Number of minions isn't a variable there.

For the sake of completeness, number of minions could matter in a couple of trivial cases:
1. If your team is so weak that MoP is expiring before the target dies, then the premise that damage-per-copy-of-MoP is limited by the target's hp is false, so more minions would benefit you up until the point that you're killing the target before MoP expires. This case is trivial because teams that weak aren't worth discussing.
2. If your team is so weak that unbuffed minions are providing the next kill on the MoP-ed target faster than party members can kill the called target, so that there arises a relation between number of minions and AP frequency. This case is trivial because teams that weak aren't worth discussing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

2: Doing an actual call with CTRL + space. Once you do that, they're locked onto the target. Pressing the spacebar alone won't be enough to make them switch anymore. They'll stay on it till it's dead or till you call another target.

1. It has not been my experience that H+H stay on a called target that reliably. But if it's been working for you, go with it.

2. Assuming you call something that's eligible for discording (you could always call a target not eligible for discording, but that would be inefficient), there's a risk that discord will be recharged and they'll kill it quickly and proceed to follow your current target. You should be OK if you call another target again before discord recharges. So that would be: call target 1, cast MoP on target 2, call target 3, in rapid succession. That's not terrible, but I'd rather just apply a few minutes of effort to designing a better team build than constant effort to non-stop calling. I suspect that we may have assign different fun/annoyance values to effort spent on build design in town versus H+H management in the field. Again, if what you've been doing is working for you, and you enjoy it, go for it.

AtomicMew · Jul 12, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

All put together, the relationship looks something like this:
Average DPS = (42*A*((B-C)/D))/E
Where:
A = average number of adjacent foes
B = average hp of target when MoP is cast
C = average total damage done to target via non-physical damage
D = average packet size of physical damage done to target
E = average effective cast+recharge time for MoP considering effect of AP

Your equation is misleading and entirely wrong. From your reasoning, MoP DPS is the same with 1 paragon hitting as with 2 paragons hitting. Clearly, that is wrong.

As follows:

Average DPS while MoP is up = 42*A*Z
Z = combined total physical hit rate (hits/second)

Time that MoP is up = B / (Z*D + X)
X = Average non-physical DPS.

Combining these two equations and accounting for MoP cast-time (e.g., 1 second),
Total Average MoP DPS = [(42*A*Z)*B/(Z*D+X)]/[(B/Z*D+X)+1]

Now THIS equation does account for everything, and each variable is independent (as much as is realistic in a model).

1) What it shows is that MoP DPS increases as Z, the average hit rate.
2) The MoP DPS decreases if you increase packet size, D (e.g., buffing physicals), or if you add non-physical DPS, X (e.g., discord).
3) In the limit that physical packet size is small (e.g., minions), Total Average MoP DPS = [(42*A*Z)*B/X]/[(B/X)+1]. Z, the hit rate, and X, average nonphysical DPS determines MoP DPS. X can be controlled by micro, which is what I had been saying all along.
4) In EVERY case, MoP DPS is increased by increasing Z, hit rate. In discordway, Z can be increased by the amount of minions you have.
5) In the limit that MoP lasts a long time compared to cast time, (i.e., Time that MoP is up >> 1), MoP DPS is directly proportional to the hit rate. This does not even need to be a very long time. Say 5 seconds, the resulting proportionality is ~85% accurate. I.e., If MoP lasts 5 seconds, MoP DPS = 0.85*(42*A*Z) In the limit that MoP lasts a short time, say, 1 second, MoP DPS = 0.5*(42*A*Z).

Even IF MoP lasts a very short time, the amount of DPS MoP does is still proportional to Z, the hit rate.

let me know if I can clarify anything.